Feedback: Gamers and artists

Many readers have responded to "Games vs. Art: Ebert vs. Barker." Here's a sampling:

From: Eric-Jon Waugh, Oakland, CA

The thing is, videogames -- like film, novels -- are about establishing a particular perspective of the world. Whereas film and novels explore this perspective through a linear narrative, videogames define the world of the observer through a limited set of laws. The artist's control is in defining the world, the laws that govern it, and thereby -- critically -- the potential consequences of action.

For that is what videogames explore, on a basic level: cause and effect, action and consequence. That few explore it well is beside the issue of the potential of the format. Imagine if you will a world defined by the rules of childhood -- all of the little baseless paranoias and insecurities. Now imagine the issues an elaborately staged, highly psychological design could explore by playing the player's responses to the game's stimulation.

Hitchcock is considered master of his form in part because of his skill in playing the audience. The same is the key skill in a game designer; the craft just isn't there yet. And the interface sucks. (The Wii is a nice step.) And maybe the technology isn't where it needs to be yet, either.

The key issue, I think, is the difference between freedom and liberty. Sure, there's no art in freedom -- in being able to do anything you want at any time. Liberty, though -- an allowance of choice, within a limited scope of options -- now we're getting somewhere. Especially if, within that narrow web, there is real, meaningful consequence to every action.

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From: Christian Pilling

Reading your article “Games vs. Art: Ebert vs. Barker,” I did tend to agree with Barker that your knowledge of video games (it’s not your field of expertise) limits your ability to judge their artistic merit. You say that the malleability of plot elements disqualifies games from being considered high art. I wanted to point out that not all games—not even a majority—have “choose your own ending” conclusions. Traditional games have a story with a start and an end, the player simply progresses through the story line, in an interactive way.

Most games have a pre-determined plots with deliberately written singular endings. The audience has the unique ability to move through the environment and control the angles of the camera and, seemingly, the actions of the character. But those actions usually fall within the intentions of the gamemaker and are directed toward the goal of advancing the linear plot. This is best exemplified in the “adventure” genre of games (games that are like ‘Myst,’ but are less atmospheric and puzzle-based than story driven).

So when it comes down to it, the difference between film and games is the introduction of camera and movement control. The ability to look around and move through a cinematic game sequence is a powerful and deeply immersive experience that engages the audience in to an extent that film could never reach.

Please remember, Mr. Ebert, that video games are an extremely young medium and that many art critics famously and prejudicially denounced film in the exact same way during its infancy. Much to the dismay of visual art critics, Ricciotto Canudo declared in 1911 that film was the “sixth art.” I’ve heard video games referred to recently as the seventh art, much to the dismay of sixth art critics like yourself.

I do, however, agree that most games are made for entertainment and moneymaking purposes primarily. Games that I would classify as high art are extremely few and far between. This doesn’t mean that the medium of video games should be dismissed altogether or that it doesn’t have great potential for the future. Just like some of the most groundbreaking films in history were made outside the influence of major studios, high art video games are mostly being made outside of major developers. Super Columbine RPG is a famous example of this.

Thanks for reading. Please keep an open mind.

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From: Daniel Rudolph, Cedar Rapids, IA

Despite the way you've come off in the video game press, it's clear to me that your claim video games aren't art isn't so much a dismissal of games as an argument about the definition of art. I have no problem with the video games and sports analogy. As far as I'm concerned, James Naismith was a great artist and one's who's had considerably more impact on the world than Ingmar Bergman, not that makes him any better.

However, under your relatively narrow definition, I think it is still quite possible for a video game to qualify as art. Movies have certainly dealt with the idea of multiple versions of events. "Ran" comes to mind. I could easily imagine a video game with a similar structure where you have multiple ways of going through some premise and the artistry is in the way it responds to your actions and the larger picture of what the mere fact all of these outcomes can be achieved means. Just because the events are, to some degree, in the hands of the player does not mean that the theme is. "Third World Farmer" is an example of a game that I believe would fit your definition of art: http://www.3rdworldfarmer.com/

Granted, it would be very difficult, if not impossible with current tech, to make a game that was about something other than the effects of your actions or lack thereof, but that's a broad category and it seems to me video games are better suited than any other medium to making this point.

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From: Steven J. Steiner, Seattle, WA

The obstacles for video games as art are much the same as the obstacles for film as art. Artistic goals are typically secondary to commercial goals, and it can be outrageously expensive to produce a work in either medium.

I believe you may not have considered all of the attributes of the medium, in your claim that video games cannot be high art. One shouldn’t expect browsing the typical uses of a medium to define the artistic capability of that medium. Does looking at the average movie give any indication of the artistic possibilities of film?

The goals of art are incredibly varied. There are certainly cases where the specific attributes you define as artistic weaknesses in video games are precisely what an artist will want to use to accomplish a goal.

Choice in a video game is illusionary. The choices available are precisely those provided by the designer. The illusion of choice, combined with the game designer’s complete control of the outcome is an incredibly powerful tool for shaping both emotion and thought. The fact that it is complicated to create such an experience is irrelevant in this debate, since it is also quite complicated to make an artistic film.

I do agree with you that it is quite pointless for you to play video games to appreciate the medium's capabilities. You would be much better off browsing the chapters of one of the few recently compiled books about the medium. “Rules of Play: Game Design Fundamentals”, by Katie Salen and Eric Zimmerman, will give a better overview of both the strengths and weaknesses of the medium for art, then any amount of game playing. It will also be far less time consuming.

Finally, I am very interested to know what specific films you consider art. Is the movie is “Dark City” art, or does it fail on some criteria?

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From: Grayson Towler, Longmont, CO

I am reminded most forcefully of an old Peanuts strip. Linus has been working vigorously on his crayon-based art, and shows his latest creation to his sister, Lucy. Instead of commenting on the technique and effort, Lucy surprises her little brother by asking how long it took him to draw this. "45 minutes," he replies.

Then Lucy bowls him over, declaring with absolute certainty: "Great art takes at least one hour!"

Your ongoing critique of video games is an argument that you can neither win nor lose. All you are doing is making arbitrary declarations, like Lucy Van Pelt. Art cannot be interactive? Art must lead you to one story conclusion? These positions are so rooted in personal taste as to defy any substantial discussion. It's as useful as arguing whether or not tomatoes taste good.

Really, I have the deepest admiration for you as a movie reviewer. But tell me honestly, sir: how much weight would you give to the opinion of a movie reviewer who never actually watched movies?

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From: Ben Hojem, Brooklyn, NY

I'm writing to respond to your latest discussion of the video games as art debate. While I'm in general agreement with your assertions about the nature of art, I was wondering how familiar you are with academic movements that empower the audience to a work to create limitless interpretations (the beginnings of post-modernism slightly predates your undergraduate days I believe). Critics such as Roland Barthes have made careers out of de-emphasizing the "intentions" of artists and have argued for creating readings of works of literature that are subservient to different schools of thought. I know that you were a graduate student and I imagine you must have encountered these theories that were gaining momentum during that time. Still, your discussion of the definition of art sidesteps the schools of thought that desire more malleability and audience input in how art is experienced.

One could argue that video games offer an opportunity to take the empowerment of the audience even further and allow them to create art through their own subjectivity.

At any rate, although I'm not a fan of the every-interpretation-is-as-good-as-any-other school of thought, I thought I would throw this into the mix.

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From: Min Hyo-shin, Bucheon, South Korea

(First, sorry for my crude English.)

I just want to say there are other games.

Have you heard about "Electroplankton"? It's not a narrative game like "Silent Hill" series. It's more like an artistic tool. There is no goal in the game. You can just compose your own visual art. The creators call it "Touchable Media Art"

There are some other games like "SimCity." It's not an art. But you can create an art work with this game -- your own city. It's not a Michelangelo but it's still an art.

And there are some games like Sims and The Movies. They give us some backgrounds and characters and we can create our own movies with them. (Check Sims movie in YouTube.) They are crude. But it's just a beginning. And there are some serious artists who make animation movies with game engines. Their works are much better than the average Sims movies.